/e/ Feels a Little Bit Big Corporation To Me!

[DoR3M3]

Why would I say something like I did in the Title? Because /e/ doesn’t show how important Freedom of Choice in a System is.

1. My Data is My Data is not simply about Data. Privacy Oriented systems like this, are also suppose to reflect Freedom of Choice in the entire infrastructure.

2. In regards to #1 above, Notes requires you to have an account to work, this isn’t Freedom, this is being forced into using something the company way.

3. Sync is On by Default, all your contacts, pictures, everything will be automatically uploaded to their Cloud, if you don’t turn of Sync quickly, and to new users, they might not understand this right away.

4. In regards to #3 above, not everyone likes the Cloud, or wants to Sync, so Sync in a world of Privacy Orientated systems, this would be Off by Default, to protect someone’s rights and choice, this also doesn’t reflect a company Mission/Policy about how My Data is My Data, the right to chooose what to do with it.

5. In regards to the Cloud and Devices Sync, the online site murena.io, if you log into the website and you created an account on your device and left Sync on, besides seeing all your data now in their cloud, you wll also notice that the system automatically created the same File Directory structure that your device has, and even a Folder named after your Device. Again, this shows a lack of Privacy and end-user choice, having this all automatically created for them. Some people might like the idea of having an email account, with Files created with the structure of their device, and others might wish to have a basic normal email account is all, again, Freedom of Choice, allowing end-users to choose, has been lost here.

So, in the world of the Proprietary OS, and companies, like Apple, Microsoft, Google, etc., they all say the same things, we are not forcing you, you can choose, and download other apps and change things. Everyone gets this, but in the so called scheme of things, when it comes to ease of usage and simplicty, companies like this forgot, for many end-users this just creates frustration, having to find good working alternatives, and that isn’t always so easy.

So while /e/ might be saying the same thing, they aren’t forcing you into any way, and just wanting to offer a complete and easy solution for everyone, /e/ is also forgetting, you are forcing end-users into accepting your way of doing things, when you could of offered a Notes app that doesn’t require an account, or Auto Sync and create everything.

Real Data, Real Privacy/Security is showing Real Respect to your end-users, in an OS and system anyone creates, that they have Real Freedom of Choice in that system, to do 100% as they please, with how you created that system.

Don’t take me wrong /e/ I’m not here to give you or anyone a bad word here, I’m only giving feedback, because I do appreciate what you do, so that is why I’m taking my time to share, to help make it better, because it can be and it should be.

SO, I’m sorry to say, but some of the things you are doing are wrong, and should be changed, if you really care about everything being the end-users.

My Data, My OS, My Account, Mine, Mine Mine…

[DoR3M3]

Another Subject I forgot to mentiion, even this Forum feels like a Data Collecting Big Corporate place.

1. If you edit a post, there is now a Post History for everyone to see.

2. If you delete a Post, again, the Post History is there for everyone to see.

3. You can’t delete your Private Messages.

All of these things, might feel like Data Collection to people, it certainly does to me.

Again, My Data is My Data, rhetorically speaking, why are you collecting it on the forum and when somone wants to change, remove delete it, it’s not gone, it should be.

SO, this Forum, also shows a lack of Choice in My Data is My Data when you post something on this forum and should change.

You might say to yourself, /e/ owns this forum, it’s their forum to do as they wish, true, that is correct, but when you make a mistake with a post and want to delete Your Post, your words, you should have that Freedom to do so on a Forum, think about that for a second.

[stanwood]

What you describe is not wrong. However, I would like to add my personal opinion:

1. It is not mandatory to create a Murena account when you first initialize the device. So you can use your smartphone without having any account anywhere.

2. It is possible to use your own server (via Nexcloud) instead of /e/.

3. The application “notes” can be easily replaced by “simple note” (open source) which does not require an account.

4. The objective of /e/ is to allow an easy use of an open source and degooglized operating system for the greatest number of people, by adding basic synchronization services.

5. There are plenty of other similar ROMs without any Cloud services such as “Iodé OS”, “LineageOS for Micro-G”, etc…

6. /e/ offers a quite easy ecosystem and very oriented towards the protection of personal data (only 1 application store, possibility to block trackers, hide IP address, get the private score of applications, etc…) while offering a set of ready-to-use, stable and efficient services.

In conclusion, I think that /e/ is aimed at a public that wants a combined and functional solution on their smartphone, rather than just another alternative operating system.
All of those are just great to me, but may not be suitable for everyone.

[ralxx]

I really understand everybody who is suspicious about cloud usage. But what I like about /e/OS is that you can opt to run the system without connecting it to the cloud service, even then the phone is really working well. As a user you should look into other ways to backup user data (such as contacts and photos).
If you opt to connect your /e/OS to a Murena account you are free to chose which of your user data is going to be synced with the server. Just check: Settings > Accounts > YOUR MURENA ACCOUNT > Account sync.

Just have a look.

Although I understand your fears, I feel your concrete criticism in /e/ is not justified.

[DoR3M3]

@ralxx Hi,

Everything you said is not inline with the points I was trying to make.

1. This is not about ‘Suspicious’, this is about Freedom of Choice.

2. You can also run any Device made by Apple, Microsoft, Google etc., without connecting to their cloud services too.

3. End-users should always consider backing up data in various ways, this has nothing to do with the conversation, this is just a Common Practice everyone should simply do.

4. Yes you can choose what Data to Sync. I was pointing out that by Default all of the Sync is On, when in a Security/Privacy OS, giving people Freedom of Choice, it should be Off by Default, especially for new users, that I pointed out, who might not understand how to go about this right away, and sync all their data online.

And last, this is not about Fear either, again, everything here being discussed is about one thing; Freedom of Choice and a company that reflects this understanding in their practices.

Bottom Line, /e/ is saying one thing, and doing another…

[DoR3M3]

It’s not about what is or isn’t Mandatory, it’s the fact that /e/ created something, and then every other business comes along and says the same things; We can’t make a System that works for everyone, one size fits all, etc. But, this is not true, /e/ could of made a Notes app that doesn’t require an account, or have Sync on by default, or created the online email account, automatically creating the layout for you.

I know this is a subject that others will share many thoughts on, but the important things to try and see and realize, that I’m trying to point out, that the Subject of Discussion is about /e/'s statement is all;

My Data is My Data

And how the company isn’t really reflecting that very well…

So let me say it this way…

Create an OS, so end-users don’t need an account to use any app, so they don’t need to go out and look for other apps to accomplish this, or when creating an account, need to understand Sync and how to deal with it as a New User, also not having an account that automatically creates everything for you.

Basic synchronization services as you put can exsist, there’s nothing wrong with this, but Notes didn’t have to be designed like this, forcing you into needing an account to use. Let’s not beat around like Big Corporate does, saying no one is forcing anyone, but in truth this is, if you want to use Notes, then you have to create an account to use, otherwise you need to go find another Notes app, which then creates a waste of time, needing to do this.

This also isn’t about Cloud services or a Lack of Cloud services, it’s about allowing Choice in the system with the apps you include, Notes, should of never been made this way is all.

We can go on the subject(s) of all the other great things /e/ offers and does, but then that just distracts us from the real issues at hand, so then that becomes Off Topic conversation, let’s try to stick to the topic and no distract from it, I’m certainly not saying you are doing anything, but that is exactly how Big Corporate spins their Marketing to consumers, and we don’t need the Fancy Sales Pitch from them.

The important thing for everyone to See and Realize here is One Thing, and One Thing Only, and how that Statement pertains to everything I’m saying and trying to point out, but everyone is not seeing that, and talking about other areas.

Is that this is only about; My Data is My Data.

SO, what /e/ is aimed at is a very valid Point but you missed as it relates to the Statement of;

My Data is My Data.

Unfortunately, what most will fail to realize, is that, how many ways can you look at and consider, on how many levels does, what does; My Data is My Data should look like to everyone, and when you look at this on every conceivable level, what these words mean, then /e/ is failing in some regards to actually provide this, forgetting that to have an obtain, you must have Freedom and Choice, with what you are given, to do so. SO now, do you see?

If you all are still not seeing, simply put, with the Infrastructure, OS, services, apps, etc., they gave us, everything should of been done, so you can use everything; ‘Your Way’.

[petefoth]

Nonsense! You can choose whether or not to create and use an e / murena account. You can choose whether or not to use /e/'s cloud-connected apps. You can choose whether or not to post in the forum’s.

/e/ aims to provide the sort of services that stock Android provides, and make them easy to use, as stock Android does, but in a way that respects their users’ privacy in a way that stock Android does not.

Nobody makes you use these services - it’s your choice. If you don’t like the cloud services, don’t use them. If you don’t like how /e/ goes about its business, don’t use /e/OS. The choice is yours

[DoR3M3]

You’re not understanding what I’m trying to point out.

I understand what /e/ is aiming at providing, no one is disputing that.

Go back and really read everything I’ve posted and see if it helps you better.

We’re talking about the My Data is My Data statment along with Freedom of Choice, within the confines of a business like /e/, and how that applies to end-users, but what a company gives to you, to use…

SO…

Every company that gives us products to use, says the same things, you have choices and you are free to use whatever you wish as you’ve stated, this is not the point.

A big problem with this, is that, most end-users will not go out and look for alternatives, because many times, trying to find easier solutions that work actually better than what the companies offer is not always easy, or better.

So I’m not sure you really understand everything I’ve been saying.

Let me say it in another way. I’m not saying what a lot of /e/ is doing is all bad, I’m trying to point out, that the way in which they are going about it could be better.

So let me hightlight it like this, as to ways in which to improve; My Data is My Data;

1. All apps allow 100% freedom to use, and choose how you use them, like Notes as an example, no account needed to use any apps like this, etc…

2. Sync in a Privacy/Data/Security Focused System should be Off by Default.

3. When creating an account on a device, or online, do not automatically create a File Layout, allow end-users the choice to pick and choose, so a simple Option, Enable/Disable.

I hope I made this clearer now, I thought I did before.

[petefoth]

@DoR3M3

You’re not understanding what I’m trying to point out.

Thank you, but I understand what you have been pointing out - at length and in several posts in different threads. You clearly disagree with the way that /e/ has chosen to implement things n their cloud-based services, and feel that they should have done things differently. You are of course entitled to that opinion, and others are entitled to to agree or disagree with your opinion.

I happen to hold a different opinion. I also find the tone and attitude of your post - and of most of the 50 posts you have made since joining the forum four weeks or so ago - to be negative, unhelpful, and no in the spirit of most of the posts in these forums, which generally try to be constructive and helpful.

Clearly that is only my opinion, and others are free to agree or disagree

Whatever, I won’t be spending my time engaging in discussion with you in future. Life is too short (in my opinion) to waste time engaging with people who are wrong on the internet Goodbye, good luck, and I hope your experience of /e/ - the OS, the cloud services, the community here - improves over time.

[irrlicht]

@stanwood

It is not mandatory to create a Murena account when you first initialize the device. So you can use your smartphone without having any account anywhere.

As far as I remember no one tells you. Instead you are encouraged to create your account when you start up for the first time. I understood: it’s the best idea, otherwise many things will probably not work. One of the first actions I did in the next ten minutes was to stop synchronization, but I had already files up there.

[DeJay]

@DoR3M3

• Sync is On by Default, all your contacts, pictures, everything will be automatically uploaded to their Cloud, if you don’t turn of Sync quickly, and to new users, they might not understand this right away.
• In regards to #3 above, not everyone likes the Cloud, or wants to Sync, so Sync in a world of Privacy Orientated systems, this would be Off by Default, to protect someone’s rights and choice, this also doesn’t reflect a company Mission/Policy about how My Data is My Data, the right to chooose what to do with it.

When I was a new user a couple of years ago, having been seduced by the “your data is your data” statement, I followed what instructions there were for setting up an account and was happily using it (the phone that is!) until I got a message saying my cloud storage was full and I needed to clear it or pay up for more. My reaction was “What F##ing account, I didn’t set one up!” But I unwhittingly had, so I had to cancel it and clear the storage. What I (also) didn’t know was that my contacts etc. were stored off my phone and I lost them all. So, my data is not MY data after all!

It’s not clever to say you don’t have to set sync up when speaking from hindsight, new users are unlikely to know and many like me who bought a pre-installed phone, just want to get the phone up and working and not spend days studying the subject.

[obacht]

I made an informed decision buying from e-shop and from what I remember the information that e offers an ecosystem and not only a phone is/was not secretly hidden anywhere but it´s rather straight in your face. That is because e tries to also address those people who want an ecosystem without google or apple and not only those who anyway do their things with their custom ROMs…

I do not remember exactly how it was stated during phone setup but I simply did not setup an account because why would I want to as I have my mail, carddav, calday and nextcloud somewhere else anyway … and I knew that even before I bought the phone because I doublechecked whether it would work without account or not and I bought only because I knew it would work without e-account.

One can (should) simply doublecheck what an offered account is about before signing in.

(edit: typo)

[sonyxa2]

I guess we all agree that what happened at @DeJay is unfortunate (data loss is always a major and painful problem), and I am really sorry it happened.
As well, we all recognize that there may be new users needing a device working as they wish out of the box. And here is the point: I believe that, 2 years ago, /e/OS team were pioneers. I imagine that, despite all their efforts, probably not everything was 100% clear to newcomers or documented, in the same way as every single user had different and possibly unclear wishes or expectations towards /e/OS. Because of this, I agree with @obacht: some effort from the users was needed. I still am a newbie in all the IT stuff; when I installed /e/OS a couple of years ago, I did it since I was happy to learn that no account was needed. The reason is that I am wary of spreading information in every sort of cloud account (I prefer local backups of personal information), and therefore I am not an expert in what happens with a full cloud storage space: perhaps it would have been the same with other well-known cloud solutions. But, in the end, I hope that what happened to @DeJay is no longer the case today; I believe that it would be a good idea for the future of /e/OS to make sure that the newcomers that do not want to spend time to understand how everything works, are guided in their choices. A happy user is always the best ambassador.

[irrlicht]

Every second week someone comes and opens a thread here called “my cloud space is full - what should that mean?”. – Sure you can inform. But it’s also absolutely legitimate not to be 101% informed, especially if you speak another language or have no technical knowledge at all.

It would on the other hand be very simple, easy to implement, user friendly, privacy fostering and honest

• to inform the user in that moment when the user is urged to create an online account that there’s no need at all to have this

• to ask the user before (!) the synchronization starts what should be synchronized, the very most people would switch these damned music files of, once for all

Keep in mind that /e/ could make it better and smarter than others. These two things could be made by an apprentice in half a day. The third idea is more complex:

• give the user generally stock apps which are able to have their data online or locally on the device (contacts, calendar, notes … all the PIM stuff) and let the local case be the default

[obacht]

agreed, local should be default and decision points should be clearly indicated

[tcecyk]

this thread has a point, but is easy to derail. Essentially proponents ask the first-time-setup-wizard to be more explicit / educational about the option to press Next and use the device without an account? this can be achieved: make a argument in the backlog adhering at least to the feature-request template. There’s no specific discussion on this yet (apart from the “modularize /e/” thread that has larger scope).

(the ftsw account pairing screen in v1.5 R)

Peripheral issues to “use without account” already exist: using Notes without account. When they don’t see progress it is most likely an issue of resources or some times product direction.

[irrlicht]

Yes, this is the screen. Thanks a lot for the picture.

That the Next button probably allows skipping this entire step did I not recognize.