/e/ phone as a means of getting of the radar of Google

@HenkK if you are looking for a response from /e/ developers … ‘we changed line 46 on this code file or the plan is to be ‘perfect’ on day xx of xxx month’… then we do not have such detailed documentation nor a perfect plan with precise dates . It is a small team and most of the time the team members are neck deep in bug fixes and enhancement requests.
In case we are forgetting, the code base we use is from google- AOSP. Which Lineage took up and then we forked from them.
We have de-googled a lot of it. Do not ask exactly which lines because as I mentioned it is simply not possible to track that now as it is not documented…
Getting into an argument or discussing all this again or expect new answers that are beyond what has already been given here is not going to happen because as I mentioned the dev team is already running late on a number of issues for e.g. closing out 600 bugs (numbers as of today), releasing an easy installer, Upgrading the devices still stuck on nougat or oreo to the Pie build, coming out with a system with different levels of profiles and a FOSS only version of the ROM, change the name from /e/ to something more easier, …the list is long and I have not even mention half the issues we are tackling

What will be easier for you is using your experience you can run tools / apps which check the network connectivity or run through the code and let us know if the /e/OS still leaks data.
The entire code base is available on Gitlab.

Find out where we went wrong or what is not done properly and let us know by raising issues on the Gitlab and we will be happy to fix it.

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There are too many things to list them here, I suggest starting reading this: https://www.privacytools.io

In my opinion the answer can be better than that. You, or another /e/ member could provide a general state of the ungoogling at this point. For example:

  • DNS is not provided bij Google anymore.
  • Connections to Google are removed (there maybe still some connections, we challenge users to find them).
  • Microg can expose your identity, but is needed for a lot of Apps’s.
  • etc.
    I’m sure there are a lot more points. It is important to be clear about this, because /e/'s target is to be Goolag free, the state of that mission must be clear.

A “degoogle” tag in the Gitlab commits would also help. This way people interested in that could search way faster.

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@Manoj now we are talking. basically you are inviting me, as a user, to become an insider. the openness of the source code is a good thing, but the technical knowledge needed and the amount of source code make it practically undoable. detecting leakage to Google is a responsibility of /e/, not of its users. please add it to /e/.

there are two issues here for me. the first issue is that the /e/ organisation should hold itself accountable for their claims to the general pubic in an orderly fashion. bits of information here and there in the forum is not adequate for accountablilty. it should have a starting point at the homepage. the other issue is the apparent shift of focus towards making /e/ more acceptable, all while the primary goal of ungoogling is still not met completely. for me ‘un-googling’ is the reason of existence (raison d’etre) of /e/.

What @andrelam is writing, that is exactly what i am asking for. Hold yourself accountable to the general public for your claim of un-googling. Make the list of André, which is high level, complete, to cover in an understandble way what un-gloogling means, and to what extent your goal is reached. If at some points there still is a exposure to the Google eco system, help me understand what it means for my privacy wrt Google. if you are working on improvement give us release date’s.

I cannot plead the cause of /e/ by saying ‘/e/ is not completely un-googled, but they are good guys and working very hard’.

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@lkesjbnrti and @PNJ88_Beast thanks for the reactions. I like to take up the challenge, but first I need to have a clearer idea of the measure of success of /e/ in un-googling android. if there remains exposure to the Google eco-system, it could be interesting to compare this to a radical approach in avoiding/suppressing google exposure with a regular stock rom. interesting because it can be applied by everybody who uses an android phone. I propose to do this then in a seperate thread.

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Hello.

As I understand, Manoj told you that everyone can help. Users can test and report bugs and issues. No need to be a power-user.

It seems understable that the full list of de-googled features, everywhere in the code, can’t really be done or may create a f… amount of work.

At least, I tried to use custom ROMs whithout gg apps and as few datas leak as possible. But I can’t ungg the code by myself, so I have to trust /e/ devs will… and wait for the /e/FOSS I’m expecting.

Use /e/, report bugs, try alternative apps, tell about how they work in /e/ without gg… help /e/ ! Devs have already nice results, other will come, be sure :wink:

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There is a response on our documentation site here in case that answers some of the questions raised here.
All the same I would say find the answers yourself.
Google and Facebook in their press releases always maintain that they seriously value their user rights and privacy. We all know what the facts are.
Similarly do not take us on our statements or comments.
Flash the build or check the code and let us know what issues still remain .
As Gaël always says /e/ is a evolution not a revolution. We are working on evolving and improving the AOSP / Lineage code.
We will be happy to update and improve the code in case there are valuable pointers from your side.

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The documentation available on the website is well written and structured including a chapter on what is meant by ungoogling.
But I’m also happy to see that the ungoogling part that is at the core of /e/ is being questioned. It sure is complex and technical. As a non-tech savy I will not dig into it personally but I need to see trust from the community. I don’t know how /e/ can bring this trust, but this discussion gives hints. I noticed in the past a lack of convergence between e and Lineage (it was regarding updates). Why not consider the complete supply chain. Check upstream where we can gain efficiency and smoothen the processes.

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The whole idea of /e/ is to address everyone, including the great majority of us who want the usual mainstream apps, (and maybe get rid of it over time). Just a reminder so we stay focused.

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???

Privacy needs to learn other way of using your phone. How can you expect privacy from mainstream (googled) apps ? Furthermore with permissive settings ?

I installed /e/ without SIM card nor WiFi, disabled first Location and all microG settings… privacy need to be paranoid, first ! And /e/staff can’t ungg /e/users :smiley:

Édith says : tittle is about “getting of gg’s radar”…

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@HenkK @Andy1: Maybe this is closer, to what you are looking for:

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Hello.

Same link that Manoj posted yesterday. But two times is better than none :wink:

dear all, thanks for jumping in and contributing!

@Andy1 thanks for the warm welcome! and the many references!

Conclusion: I can tell my friends and relatives that /e/ is an un-glooged android, and that to assess the validity of that claim they can read this and that and such and so post in de forum, peruse a million lines of code and/or install a network sniffer to see for themselves…

I want to be open to you, today I bought a second hand Nexus 5, installed Ubuntu Touch and started a new adventure. I might come back, don’t know anything for sure at the moment.

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What info sends to Google for apps messaging service? IMEI? IP address? Wifi MAC address? Device model and hardware? Android version? Cell service provider?

Does this make waste of all other degoogling?

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That’s great news, keep us on the loop on how you do with Ubuntu!

Maybe we just went a little out of hand with providing too much information, which can be overwhelming. Let me just address something you said above:

Conclusion: I can tell my friends and relatives that /e/ is an un-glooged android, and that to assess the validity of that claim they can read this and that and such and so post in de forum, peruse a million lines of code and/or install a network sniffer to see for themselves…

The reality is that you are trusting someone to provide you with drinkable water, gluten-free bread, PH-neutral bathing salts, etc. But how you do assess the validity of those claims other than cross reference resources already written by reputable authorities on the matter?

My point is: you either trust what we say here or verify it yourself. We are only trying to build up trust by backing our claims with information that you can read and reference. There is no other way for us to make you believe that “we are right”.

/e/ is no silver bullet (neither is Ubuntu Touch), it’s a small project with limited resources that hasn’t even come out of beta phase yet. There’s a long way to go until it fits your needs, until then I say you should keep an eye because it is one of the most promising alternatives to achieve an ungoogled phone.

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thank you, @Andy1! :wink:

@PNJ88_Beast I feel your concern. But at the same time you are missing my point. You have not giving me too much information. You have not given me the information I asked for. I am asking for an official statement of the /e/ organization about the state of affairs concerning un-Googling Android. A sensible statement that shows that you really know what is needed and that shows the size of the task, what is achieved, and what is still under development, or what will not be solved. And because this is the primary reason of existence for /e/, what quality controls do you have in place? What independent expert controls have been done? How will you handle new android versions. Etc. Hold yourself accountable for your primary claim. This is too important to let it reside in haphazard forum threads or stories in friendly magazines.

You compare this with food I buy in a shop. Let’s follow that line for a moment. If I would eat a particular food item for one month, without health complaints, would that be convincing to you if I say ‘Hey, this stuff is really safe!’. For food there is a Food&Drug Administration that sets criteria, runs admission procedures, takes samples for a lab, etc. Producers are obliged to follow procedures in preparing. If there is a risk, the consumer is informed and can take his own decision. I know you know, but I am telling this as illustration for the mindset.

if I trace all network traffic of an clean installed /e/ phone for half an hour, and then say ‘hey guys, /e/ is 100% ungoogled!’ would you believe me?

Good intentions, working hard, repeating ‘privcay-concern slogans’ is not enough.

Apologies for repeating myself over and over. Some friendly posts trigger me…

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Ah, I see now sorry to keep running in circles like that. As far as I know there is no such statement nor I can give you one since I’m not part of the project. I agree that an official statement detailing how /e/ is making progress would be highly beneficial.

I expect that statement to come eventually, maybe with the 1.0 version release. For what is worth, you can kind of see what progress has been made through the latest updates posted in the forum, afterall actions speak louder than words so to speak. For your reference:

2019 Summer Update
Update and 2020 Roadmap

There is this external review and is interesting to read about the issues /e/ had, and how there has been some progress (even if there’s still a lot of work left to do). Is not a full audit of the code or anything like that, but one of the most in depth reviews that I know of.

Review by Infosec-Handbook - part 1
Review by Infosec-Handbook - part 2
Review by Infosec-Handbook - part 3

Hope this helps, and really please let us know how does Ubuntu Touch works for you, we are all interested in finding alternatives to Google ecosystem :slight_smile:

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Hello.

Car builders do. But can you really trust them (CO/NOx, for example) ?
And for that enormous (and dangerous) industry, with so much $$$ across the world, how many trustable “independent expert controls” ?

Perhaps your asking is a little bit “too much” for a such little team… Want to buy the “/e/ company” ???

Hey there. Just wanted to give my full support and appreciation to /e/ and all the people working in the project for the great work they’re doing. Using /e/OS is a treat for me. It’s giving me the best way off G**gle I could ever imagine, it’s priceless. Bless

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