Default Instant Messaging app in /e/OS: time to remove Telegram and Signal

I think is better to use Telegram as a default IM application 'cause it’s sufficiently diffused and supported.
My two cents…

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My personal opinion: i’m a telegram’s heavy user, but i don’t feel that is necessary to make this app part of the system, same way with signal, delta chat, whatsapp. Now with /e/ store is even better to make your own choice.
I choose not to install this type of apps in system. maybe only a sms app, and let de people choose their own way of communication.

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I think it’s a great idea.
Both had their shortcomings and Delta Chat looks more in harmony with /e/'s vision.

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Honestly, I strongly believe that Signal should be pre-installed and set as default SMS handler. Defaults are powerful, and since there needs to be a default SMS app, why not have one that does excellent opportunistic encryption to a large existing userbase? Afaik only Signal fits this description. The goal of /e/ is security and simplicity, yes? If Signal is the default SMS app, everyone gets the possibility of a security upgrade to their messaging out of the box, for the low low price of a number verification.

What is the security/simplicity advantage of having QKSMS as default instead of Signal? I read a few posts where people complain how difficult Signal is to use, and I really can’t understand this… Receiving a text to verify your number is difficult? Moreover, there is no chance that your communications via QKSMS will be secure…

I do like the look of Delta Chat, and how it (also) offers a transparent opportunistic encryption. However, the userbase just isn’t there, imo, for it to be very useful yet. I would support it being included (and uninstallable) by default, though, for its simplicity & robustness & to give it a nudge into greater popularity, since its mission seems to be very good.

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but not for sms texting.
I think the best is to have a minimal and essential set of apps and leave the rest to the choice of the user that through the /e/ store will be able to assess risks/opportunities. and as already mentioned, this implies less effort in the updates of /e/.
I think that the “core business” of /e/ is the OS data privacy, not the third party apps to be installed in advance.
Thank you to whole /e/ team!

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What is the added value of preinstalling an application?

  • Readily available to be used straight away
  • People don’t realize that some apps exist at all as they come from Google world - for example F-Droid or Yalp Store
  • Some apps are tricky to install - for example microG or Privacy Guard
  • A sense of appreciation by the /e/ expertise - “if it comes preinstalled, it can be trusted”

Disadvantages of preinstalling:

  • I’m not sure if /e/ wants to blindly vouch for closed-source or proprietary apps that utilize trackers, such as WhatsApp
  • Installing an application is - in most cases - trivial, so why have it preinstalled?
  • Some categories of apps - such as IM - are currently absolutely matter of your personal preference (or what your friends are using) so having a single app preinstalled guarantees that /e/ choice will be wrong in say 80% cases

What I personally believe:

  • No closed-source apps should come preinstalled (so no WhatsApp or Telegram)
  • Apps that are essential to start using /e/ should be preinstalled - like Yelp Store, F-Droid
  • Apps that are challenging to install should be preinstalled - so MicroG, Privacy Guard

And that’s it, nothing else should come preinstalled.

In addition to these, /e/ should publish guidelines with link to F-Droid apps that are also good from privacy point of view - so OpenKeychain, P≡P, Signal etc.

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YALP and F-Droid aren’t required anymore now that there’s the Apps store included in /e/. It even contains a request form, should an app be missing.
Adding a “recommended apps” section in the store instead of bloating the rom with apps not everybody will use could be a good thing.

I don’t know anybody that uses Telegram. I tried to make people switch to Signal. Some would be reluctant due to the phone number requirement when signing in, others wouldn’t like the sub-par UI and the few that tried it a bit more gave up due to the time it would take to decrypt messages when launching the app on different devices. Hope to have more success with Delta Chat.

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that the reason i didn’t like signal as default message app

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+1 for not adding unnecessary pre-installed apps.

I [and my friends 7 family] all use Wire. No-one I know uses Signal. So I’d just uninstall it, if it was installed by default.

“Different strokes for different folks” and all that.

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I have been using Delta Chat for a while now and it is a great app. I have tried to get others too switch to it but they insist on using WhatsApp and Messenger. I’ve also tried to get people to switch to Telegram and/or Signal and non-techies are very reluctant to swap.

At least with DC non users can still receive your messages and if others use it, all messages are encrypted and it works without glitch.

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Exactly this! Getting people to switch from whatever they are using is almost impossible. Even having got one friend to switch from SMS to Signal, she now wants to go back because internet connectivity is not ubiquitous and her perception is that SMS get through more reliably.

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No to Delta Chat… Please, no, not until it matures a lot more.

It is not instant. This will confuse people.

Also, I found out the hard way it does NOT work with all email providers; e.g., Outlook related email systems (Hotmail, msn.com, etc.).

It is not ready for prime time, it will ruin the reputation of /e/ if it is preinstalled.

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I totally agree with this…

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So if it’s complex to implement the uninstallation of default App, it’s another good reason to implement as less as possible default Apps. And put a section on the /e/ App store “recommended App”
So the minimal App should be phone, contact, sms, AppStore (and maybe microG deactivated)

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There is an /e/AppStore combining F-Droid App + the most popular App in PlayStore

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It is hard to find suitable chat program to everyone. I’m using Telegram and my vote goes for it.
There are alternatives available:
for Telegram https://alternativeto.net/software/telegram/?license=opensource&platform=android
for Signal https://alternativeto.net/software/signal-private-messenger/?license=opensource&platform=android
Certainly you can search also other program alternatives.

For QKSMS there are not much alternatives.

Certainly it would be nice to have at least one instant messaging app installed but as there are impossible to choose the only one suitable to all needs then I would propose the following ideas:

  • you can create a web page where you suggest applications, give an overview of available apps, etc.
  • during installation you can offer “minimal” choice without any default apps but a link to web page with overview, suggestions, e.g. “after installation options” or similar icon on the desktop
  • full installation will be same as minimal but in addition there will be installed default apps with an option to choose those default apps one by one before installation and also a choice not to install at all. So basically an option to set all default apps no then it is like minimal installation.

Certainly if no web browser is installed then “after installation” instructions should contain direct links to F-Droid or whatever is default app store and allow install apps from there. I guess that at least one web browser should be installed. This should also be more to secure, private, free/libre and open-source oriented, e.g. Brave. There can be also other alternatives considered.

There should be a choice that during installation user can set with one switch button all defaults to no - this is like a fallback to minimal. There would be appreciated if there can be go back during installation and choose minimal. Also an switch button option to set all choices as default and user can look before start installation.

When new device with preinstalled /e/ or after factory reset then initial setup should ask which apps would user like to use as default app for each category (web, email, chat, etc.) and after choices have been done, install the apps. There should be also an option to turn off default apps so there will be no apps installed. Certainly then cannot be used these activities like web browsing, email, chat etc and then /e/ could offer a website URL where are suggestions, an overview of available apps in each category.

Result: user will get apps what she/he really needs and would be much more user friendly and flexible.

Also if user prefers not to install these apps through that wizard then this should be not enforced. User may prefer to install each app manually and set each category default app later one by one - this should be also possible. Setting up default app would be useful and much more clear for users, especially in case when there are more than one app installed in same category. Sometimes users would like to install more than one app per category but always would be useful to have control over default apps.

By choosing default apps, the system could suggest new apps based on popularity and possibly even show per each suggested app, how many times other users have been installed them. Or show popularity by stars based on users rating.

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It works with Outlook, you just have to manually enter IMAP servers settings as auto config gives an error.
IMAP server name** outlook.office365.com
IMAP port** 993
IMAP encryption method** TLS
SMTP server name** smtp.office365.com
SMTP port** 587
SMTP encryption method** STARTTLS

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I’m the project lead for Matrix, and if there’s any appetite for adopting Matrix I’d be happy to answer any questions or try to point folks in the right direction. We’re due to release our 1.0 (after 5 years of dev) tomorrow, which declares the protocol itself out of beta. Meanwhile we’ve got stuff like full cross-signed E2EE device trust on the horizon, as well as edits, reactions, low-bandwidth (100bps!) Matrix and all sorts of stuff coming up shortly.

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It works with Outlook, you just have to manually enter IMAP servers settings as auto config gives an error.
IMAP server name** outlook.office365.com
IMAP port** 993
IMAP encryption method** TLS
SMTP server name** smtp.office365.com
SMTP port** 587
SMTP encryption method** STARTTLS

I don’t know about Office 365.

And, I haven’t spent time with Delta Chat for a couple months now, so perhaps things have improved.

I can tell you this: Back in April or so I was pointed to this site, which is Delta Chat’s “Provider Overview”, https://support.delta.chat/t/provider-overview/56/2 . Search for Outlook in the middle of the list, and it clearly says that outlook.com and hotmail.com do NOT work with Delta Chat. (It was explained to me that this also means that msn.com will not work either.) That page will send you to this page,

https://github.com/deltachat/deltachat-core/issues/561 , which is the issue reporting the problem to Delta Chat. According to that github issue, this problem is still not solved.

Delta Chat is not ready for prime time.

This is an English speaking forum, thanks!