I think your scenario could only be real if you were targeted. And I don’t think the little calls “outside of your control” contain any unique identifier. So with a VPN, you’re good.
Google too
Why ? You can use /e/ on cheap phones, and keep them for years.
And the PinePhone (with kill switches) is only at 150$ (135 € + 50 € for shipping max). Not supported yet by /e/ but it’s planned.
The non-working apps are not the best for privacy, but it’s true you won’t be able to use some banking apps or Snapchat because there is no SafetyNet working in /e/, and some TV apps like Netflix because some devices (a minority I think) don’t have any DRM right.
What restrictions ?
ProtonVPN offers some free servers in a limited list of countries, not in France though and I’m not sure about the quality of the bandwidth.
But 90€ for 37 months with NordVPN (2.43€/month) isn’t something really expensive compared to what it brings.
So, yes /e/ isn’t perfect yet, but not recommend it and let people with the stockROM isn’t a good move according to me.
First of all, good job on making the switch to a more privacy-friendly lifestyle!
You surely agree that it’s not something most people are willing to go through by themselves, even if they did have any reason to give up the convenience of services they already enjoy for free. Projects like /e/ aim to make it easier for people to keep enjoying the same services like email, cloud storage, etc, while respecting their privacy.
It sounds like you’re talking more about anonymity rather than privacy. Anonymity is really a whole other level and by no means is something that technology alone can provide, it takes effort from the end user that most people, even tech savvies can afford (if you want to maintain your lifestyle and/or sanity).
I’m not really sure what to say here to answer your question, there’s always something else you can do to improve your privacy. Some issues are more critical than others, some are out of your control. In my opinion choosing the right services and supporting them is already a big step forward. Focus on that, big things first, and understand that no one single technology will get you off the radar.
@Anonyme thank you for replying. the scenario is just something I figured up myself. please let the e.foundation explain in detail to me to what degree an /e/ phone is still touching the Google ecosystem, and be concise about the planning. “it is planned” is vague. publish a planning.
restrictions in online behaviour are, if you really want to stay off the Google radar: do not use the Google search engine, don’t watch youtube video, don’t use gmail, don’t use Google translate, don’t use apps that use the playstore, etc.
@PNJ88_Beast thank you. it is not about anonymity, it is about staying off the Google radar. I would like to support /e/, but /e/ is, as I feel it, not holding itself accountable. “Big things first” is too vague for me. Tell me what the small things are… what they amount up to. The “Big things” I can for the most part also avoid on a stock rom android phone.
@HenkK if you are looking for a response from /e/ developers … ‘we changed line 46 on this code file or the plan is to be ‘perfect’ on day xx of xxx month’… then we do not have such detailed documentation nor a perfect plan with precise dates . It is a small team and most of the time the team members are neck deep in bug fixes and enhancement requests.
In case we are forgetting, the code base we use is from google- AOSP. Which Lineage took up and then we forked from them.
We have de-googled a lot of it. Do not ask exactly which lines because as I mentioned it is simply not possible to track that now as it is not documented…
Getting into an argument or discussing all this again or expect new answers that are beyond what has already been given here is not going to happen because as I mentioned the dev team is already running late on a number of issues for e.g. closing out 600 bugs (numbers as of today), releasing an easy installer, Upgrading the devices still stuck on nougat or oreo to the Pie build, coming out with a system with different levels of profiles and a FOSS only version of the ROM, change the name from /e/ to something more easier, …the list is long and I have not even mention half the issues we are tackling
What will be easier for you is using your experience you can run tools / apps which check the network connectivity or run through the code and let us know if the /e/OS still leaks data.
The entire code base is available on Gitlab.
Find out where we went wrong or what is not done properly and let us know by raising issues on the Gitlab and we will be happy to fix it.
In my opinion the answer can be better than that. You, or another /e/ member could provide a general state of the ungoogling at this point. For example:
DNS is not provided bij Google anymore.
Connections to Google are removed (there maybe still some connections, we challenge users to find them).
Microg can expose your identity, but is needed for a lot of Apps’s.
etc.
I’m sure there are a lot more points. It is important to be clear about this, because /e/'s target is to be Goolag free, the state of that mission must be clear.
A “degoogle” tag in the Gitlab commits would also help. This way people interested in that could search way faster.
@Manoj now we are talking. basically you are inviting me, as a user, to become an insider. the openness of the source code is a good thing, but the technical knowledge needed and the amount of source code make it practically undoable. detecting leakage to Google is a responsibility of /e/, not of its users. please add it to /e/.
there are two issues here for me. the first issue is that the /e/ organisation should hold itself accountable for their claims to the general pubic in an orderly fashion. bits of information here and there in the forum is not adequate for accountablilty. it should have a starting point at the homepage. the other issue is the apparent shift of focus towards making /e/ more acceptable, all while the primary goal of ungoogling is still not met completely. for me ‘un-googling’ is the reason of existence (raison d’etre) of /e/.
What @andrelam is writing, that is exactly what i am asking for. Hold yourself accountable to the general public for your claim of un-googling. Make the list of André, which is high level, complete, to cover in an understandble way what un-gloogling means, and to what extent your goal is reached. If at some points there still is a exposure to the Google eco system, help me understand what it means for my privacy wrt Google. if you are working on improvement give us release date’s.
I cannot plead the cause of /e/ by saying ‘/e/ is not completely un-googled, but they are good guys and working very hard’.
@lkesjbnrti and @PNJ88_Beast thanks for the reactions. I like to take up the challenge, but first I need to have a clearer idea of the measure of success of /e/ in un-googling android. if there remains exposure to the Google eco-system, it could be interesting to compare this to a radical approach in avoiding/suppressing google exposure with a regular stock rom. interesting because it can be applied by everybody who uses an android phone. I propose to do this then in a seperate thread.
As I understand, Manoj told you that everyone can help. Users can test and report bugs and issues. No need to be a power-user.
It seems understable that the full list of de-googled features, everywhere in the code, can’t really be done or may create a f… amount of work.
At least, I tried to use custom ROMs whithout gg apps and as few datas leak as possible. But I can’t ungg the code by myself, so I have to trust /e/ devs will… and wait for the /e/FOSS I’m expecting.
Use /e/, report bugs, try alternative apps, tell about how they work in /e/ without gg… help /e/ ! Devs have already nice results, other will come, be sure
There is a response on our documentation site here in case that answers some of the questions raised here.
All the same I would say find the answers yourself.
Google and Facebook in their press releases always maintain that they seriously value their user rights and privacy. We all know what the facts are.
Similarly do not take us on our statements or comments.
Flash the build or check the code and let us know what issues still remain .
As Gaël always says /e/ is a evolution not a revolution. We are working on evolving and improving the AOSP / Lineage code.
We will be happy to update and improve the code in case there are valuable pointers from your side.
The documentation available on the website is well written and structured including a chapter on what is meant by ungoogling.
But I’m also happy to see that the ungoogling part that is at the core of /e/ is being questioned. It sure is complex and technical. As a non-tech savy I will not dig into it personally but I need to see trust from the community. I don’t know how /e/ can bring this trust, but this discussion gives hints. I noticed in the past a lack of convergence between e and Lineage (it was regarding updates). Why not consider the complete supply chain. Check upstream where we can gain efficiency and smoothen the processes.
The whole idea of /e/ is to address everyone, including the great majority of us who want the usual mainstream apps, (and maybe get rid of it over time). Just a reminder so we stay focused.
Privacy needs to learn other way of using your phone. How can you expect privacy from mainstream (googled) apps ? Furthermore with permissive settings ?
I installed /e/ without SIM card nor WiFi, disabled first Location and all microG settings… privacy need to be paranoid, first ! And /e/staff can’t ungg /e/users
Édith says : tittle is about “getting of gg’s radar”…
@Andy1 thanks for the warm welcome! and the many references!
Conclusion: I can tell my friends and relatives that /e/ is an un-glooged android, and that to assess the validity of that claim they can read this and that and such and so post in de forum, peruse a million lines of code and/or install a network sniffer to see for themselves…
I want to be open to you, today I bought a second hand Nexus 5, installed Ubuntu Touch and started a new adventure. I might come back, don’t know anything for sure at the moment.
What info sends to Google for apps messaging service? IMEI? IP address? Wifi MAC address? Device model and hardware? Android version? Cell service provider?
That’s great news, keep us on the loop on how you do with Ubuntu!
Maybe we just went a little out of hand with providing too much information, which can be overwhelming. Let me just address something you said above:
Conclusion: I can tell my friends and relatives that /e/ is an un-glooged android, and that to assess the validity of that claim they can read this and that and such and so post in de forum, peruse a million lines of code and/or install a network sniffer to see for themselves…
The reality is that you are trusting someone to provide you with drinkable water, gluten-free bread, PH-neutral bathing salts, etc. But how you do assess the validity of those claims other than cross reference resources already written by reputable authorities on the matter?
My point is: you either trust what we say here or verify it yourself. We are only trying to build up trust by backing our claims with information that you can read and reference. There is no other way for us to make you believe that “we are right”.
/e/ is no silver bullet (neither is Ubuntu Touch), it’s a small project with limited resources that hasn’t even come out of beta phase yet. There’s a long way to go until it fits your needs, until then I say you should keep an eye because it is one of the most promising alternatives to achieve an ungoogled phone.
